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S&S Swan General - Chain locker
18 December 2017 - 16:37
#1
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Chain locker

Dear Friends,

I would like to install an electirical anchor winch on my S38. And so I have a few questions I would like to ask:

1) What type and power would you advise ?

2) what is the best place to fit the winch

3) what is the best place for the chain locker (I would prefer the forepeak)

Fair winds,

jan, yulunga, 38/110

 

20 December 2017 - 07:08
#2
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Dear Jan

Here some suggestions.
First you need to choose the anchor type and weight, this determines the chain size.
Then consider the required length of chain, the combined weight of anchor and chain determines the required windlass pulling force.
You can have the windlass on deck or below, near the bow or further aft, horizontal or vertical, with or without a rope drum. 
A heavy chain up forward causes the bow to sink a little bit, the effect can be calculated.
A narrow and high chain box is recommended for avoiding chain jams. 
The chain must be compatible with the gypsy, it is preferable to get both from the same supplier.
The recommendation is not to connect the windlass to the service batteries, the big power drain causes a voltage drop which may make the electronics malfunction. Keep the engine running when using the windlass to preserve battery power.
More advice available if required.
Kind regards
Lars

28 December 2017 - 07:53
#3
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Lars,

I am preparing for a bigger leave in about 5 years time.

I am considering a rocna anchor, because it gets the best reviews. At present I have a CQR. I am not sure what is the best weight. In an older post I remember Matteo mentioning a 60 mtr chain with very positive results. I am not sure if he had 8mm or 10 mm chain.

I would prefer the windlass on deck and the chainlocker in the forepeak, behind the two small doors. In the front cabin we have now more or less "permanent" beds and it will be not convenient to have the chainlocker under the beds, because I think you will need to help the chain to store in a proper way. Of course that will mean a lot of weight in the front of the boat, but how was the original design ? Lars: do you remenber how she was designed ? 

kind regards,

jan

28 December 2017 - 08:30
#4
Join Date: 27 January 2011
Posts: 140

 

Hi Jan,

Stefan (goosiboy) has a very interesting setup for the chain on his 411. He is using the place under the sink in the toilet for chain storage. He has constructed a bowl to hold the chain, and a tube leading the chain from the winch, which is right above, to the area below the sink. This area can easily be accessed through the two doors below the sink. The advantage of this setup is that the chain is stored close to midship. I do not know how he guides the chain from the winch to the bow.

You can contact Stefan via the message area. Maybe he can post photos here.

Regards,

Christian 411/028 IF

28 December 2017 - 11:59
#5
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Dear Jan

Thank you for the information.
Will you visit remote areas? Storm anchoring requires everything to be one size bigger.
A vertical windlass on deck with just a gypsy takes the least space. Pls note that the chainpipe is not watertight, and needs to be sealed in hard weather.
 
The chainboxes on big ships are shaped so no manual stowage help is needed, and it is suggested you consider using this approach. The box then needs to be high and narrow, the dimensions are related to the chain size.
 
With the yacht in the water you can easily try how added weight forward affects the freeboard by having people with the corresponding weight to stand on the bow.
 
Most boats have the chainbox forward, but it is preferable to have the windlass and chain stowage further aft. A removable protection for the deck is required, for example a gutter of low-friction plastic
 
The 38 was not designed for long chains. At the time there were only a few S-L manual windlasses around, and the chains were kept short.
 
Kind regards
Lars

29 December 2017 - 08:57
#6
Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 164

Dear Jan,

interesting topic ... and the anchor itself can probably justify another thread.

For the combination of chain locker layout and windlass, my suggestion is to think practical. First, a self-storing chain box as Lars pointed out is extremely practical, but should be easily accessible and slightly larger than computed, as the chain will not always store ideally, in particularly when getting stiffer with age. Second, design your system so that one person can haul the anchor and the chain in a near-emergency situation, when no second person is available but everything needs to be quick. Third, do not rely on a system that only functions with electric power; you may find a manual backup helpful. Fourth, before deciding on a mininal layout as the chain-gypsy-only windlass offers, try to list all the things you require a strong windlass for. In our case, we use the rope drum of the windlass for every inspection of the rigging; when we are only two people aboard, using the windlass is both easier and safer than using our non-self-tailing manual halyard winches. The windlass would also be my method of choice to lift a heavy person back onto the boat in a POB case. Finally, if you consider a long trip, decide on a windlass system that is proven rather than cutting edge, and that you can get replacement parts for most of anywhere.

Bottom line: keep the system simple, as things tend to get difficult all by themselves, and allow for conditions that are as far from ideal as you can imagine. Then enjoy all the ideal conditions I hope you encounter.

Fair winds and good holding grounds,
Martin (48/039)

04 January 2018 - 02:30
#7
Join Date: 07 October 2014
Posts: 74

hello jan, as christian mentioned about my setup i will show you how i did it and why.

first i meet once on grenada sailing week a sailer, he talked about swans and that they are quiet small in the fore ship.
he was saying it would be good to store the chain more close to the mast.

after that chat i was tinking about this.

160 kg of chain and 30 kg for the windlass plus thik wires ca. 200kg
can you imagine all that weight just realy in the front?

for me it was sounding right, to have the weight more in center.
and it will give more positive benefits too.

- shorter electric wires (i am having my starter battery on starboard under the setties close to the mast - so it is half way to the starter engine and half way (4 meter of wire in both directions) to the wind lass.

- the wind lass is not so exposed to the saltwater

- when bringing up the chain, (i will use a half cuted water pipe, that is stored on the spi boom) than you have the deck protection and in same way a gutter where you can easily wash the chain while bringing up.

- the weight is way more in center

- and also more below the water line

- it is more easy to build a "deep" locker

i have 70 meter of 10mm and a lofrans with 1000 Watt

on the bottom of that chain locker under the sink i made a sump.
i have to finish the projekt by make it in a close locker, because the chain may be smells later.
the chain runs down from deck in a tube (old surf mast).

the only down side for me is: i need to put the gutter under the chain and under sail to disconnect the chain

i was looking at your layout, think it is possible there too.

it is just an idea, if you have questions or other members having good ideas how i can optimize - i realy would appreciate it.

so far, stefan

Winch on deck, only 6 month there and already corroded

the room under the sink

laminated and water inside for a test

04 January 2018 - 02:33
#8
Join Date: 07 October 2014
Posts: 74

the wind lass, but without tube paint job finished

22 January 2018 - 22:01
#9
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Thank you Professor, Goosiboy and Christian for your input.

In my case I find it difficult to make a chainlocker in the sink, but I think you all are right in moving the chain as far aft as possible.

Because the Professor mentioned that the 38 is not designed for long chains, I am considering a "split" solution.

I would like to install a windlass of at least 1000 watt on the deck above the forepeak. In the forepeak I will make a relative high and narrow chainlocker for about 20 meters of 8 mm chain. Additionally I will make a hole in the bottom of the forepeak bulkhead and about 40 meters of chain will be stored in the front part of the storage below the bed. My idea is that most of the time I can do with the chain in the fore peak and when needed I can give extra chain.

And then only when there has been extra chain out I will need to guide that extra chain back under the bed.

In an earlier thread Matteo mentioned he had 60 meters of chain and an CQR anchor  of 32 lbs on Only You. And never had any problems. What is your advice on that Lars ? Will that be sufficient for storm conditions ?

And is 1000 watt enough or is perhaps 700 watt enough ? Then the windlass will be smaller and not that heavy.

Any other thoughts or suggestions ?

best regards,

Jan

38/110 YULUNGA

 

22 January 2018 - 22:37
#10
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 1031

Dear Jan,

that's correct, the worst condition I experienced was at night with 40/45 kn of wind, in about 5 m of water, a sleepless night but safe anchorage! PS: keep in mind CQR is a good anchor but nowdays you have better ones (e.g. Rocna, Ultra etc.).

Onboard Only You I had a 1,000 watts windlass

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

23 January 2018 - 07:02
#11
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Matteo,

Thank you for replying. 

Where did you store your chain ? And what brand/type of windlass was it ?

best regards,

jan

23 January 2018 - 07:19
#12
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Matteo,

Thank you for replying. 

Where did you store your chain ? And what brand/type of windlass was it ?

best regards,

jan

23 January 2018 - 12:51
#13
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Dear Jan

Thank you for the information.
Recommended chain box inside dimensions for 20 m of 8 mm chain are 264 x 264 mm square, and 300 mm average height, meaning that the aft wall is 430 mm high on the centerline. The chain does not fill this box completely. 
Above the box edge a free fall height of at least 300 mm is required below deck, at the same time this allows access to the box.
The box needs to be supported sideways without creating hard spots on the topsides, and could be painted inside with deck mastic.
 
For the remaining 40 m length it is suggested a manually turned vertical reel arrangement (a rotating drum) is considered. Could you indicate the width and height available?
 
It is recommended that the inboard end of the chain is attached to the box with a piece of rope, with a length that comes out on deck when all chain is let out. In an emergency you can then cut the rope with a knife.
 
I think Matteos CQR may have been 35 lbs, this size is suitable up to 40 feet, and there is a slight margin. The holding power of the anchor can be increased by hanging a weight on the chain, this increases the damping effect in waves, and makes the chain pull more horizontally on the anchor.
 
It is assumed you carry a second anchor on board, and have enough warp. For anchoring in coral waters a short piece of chain is necessary, but the rest can be rope.
 
The windlass should have a maximum pull of 3 times the total weight of chain and anchor. This is the old Lewmar recommendation, now they suggest 4 times, but if you have thick enough electrical cables to the windlass 3 times should be sufficient.
 
Chain weights vary a little bit from different manufacturers, an estimate is 90 kg for 60 m of 8 mm chain. Add your anchor weight, and multiply by 3 to find out the required windlass pull.
Kind regards
Lars

23 January 2018 - 21:07
#14
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Professor,

Thank you very much for your imformation and precise recommendations: it proves once more you are the professor. Thanks !!

And the reel is a very good idea.

Matteo, if you read this: where did you store your chain ?

best tegards,

Jan

23 January 2018 - 21:41
#15
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 1031

Dear Jan,

sorry for my late reply, I stored the chain (as I do onboard Vanessa) in the chain locker, of course 60 m. of chain are quite heavy but that's the perfect place.

Windlass was a Simpson-Lowrance 1,000 W. (it should now be Lewmar)

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

Only You chain locker

23 January 2018 - 22:11
#16
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Matteo,

That is a very nice front cabin, beautiful !

But where is your chainlocker ? In the forepeak behind the doors ?

best regards,

jan

23 January 2018 - 22:42
#17
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 1031

Dear Jan,

that's correct, behind the doors, I am sorry I can't find a picture (even if I am sure I do have one!)

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

23 January 2018 - 23:00
#18
Join Date: 01 April 2007
Posts: 106

Dear Matteo,

Thanks very much. I believe you, a picture isn't necessary 😊 :-)

Best regards,

jan

 

25 January 2018 - 19:08
#19
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 1031

Dear GoosyBoy,

I like your solution, I wonder if works easily (I mean if the chains runs freely in the long tube or if it jams running in/out) 

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

02 February 2018 - 02:00
#20
Join Date: 07 October 2014
Posts: 74

hello matteo, i did not tried yet,

but a friend is having same set up with the tube.

there it runs well.

on my boat is still missing the electric wire for the winch.
will arrive soon and i will try.

will let you know, how good it works.
for normal it can not jam. plenty of space in that tube.

fair winds, stefan

04 February 2018 - 00:33
#21
Join Date: 31 July 2007
Posts: 88

This is a very interesting subject! On my boat, a 1971 Swan 40, I use 180 feet, or 30 fathoms of 3/8 BBB chain and store it forward of the doors shown in the picture posted by Matteo. When I bring it in, it makes a chain castle and sometimes it jams on the way in and sometimes also when I pull it out. Very inconvenient because I have to go below, crawl into the forward berth and free the jam. What size of a narrow box would I have to build to make the chain self tending? 

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