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Sail & Rigging - Weather helm, Genoa v Yankee |
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Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234 |
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Weather helm, Genoa v Yankee |
Join Date: 30 January 2007
Posts: 461 |
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Hi John, |
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 1019 |
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Dear Daniel and John,
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Join Date: 02 February 2007
Posts: 126 |
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John, an interesting question and I guess you don't want to change the keel!
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Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234 |
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I am no expert on yacht design, but the mast being so far forward on the 411,it has the highest aspect ratio main of all S&S Swans combined with large genoa is a combination that is difficult to manage as winds strengths increase. I am told that we should reef the genoa first, but I find this does not work, what works for me is too reef the main first. The main is newish and flat.
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Join Date: 30 January 2007
Posts: 461 |
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Gavin, |
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234 |
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Daniel, my rudder is the deeper version. Balancing the CE with the CLR is easier if the pivot point is central to the length. This is not the case with our 411s.
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Join Date: 02 February 2007
Posts: 126 |
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John, carbon masts are great but very expensive if you include all the rigging bits as well. I don't know of a 411 with a carbon rig but the owner of Formula Spars did his Lymington based 41 some time ago and it looked very good and went well - he also moved the halyards aft.
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Join Date: 01 March 2007
Posts: 147 |
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Hi John, I am not familiar with the 411, but I reckon it is difficult pinpoint the precise effect of overall changes to rig and sails, and for what it is worth - our carbon mast and new flatter mainsail has reduced weather helm significantly. This in turn has focussed our attention more on trim - where there are plenty more gains to be made. It seems to me that when you start tuning up, more subtle factors come in to play- and they have a distinct order to them.
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Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234 |
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Rob, I was passing through Mylor last week and saw Sarabande on her mooring with her carbon mast and boom, very impressive. From what is being said by Daniel I think part of the problem and solution lays with heeling over and the change to the balance of CR/CLR. So taking more weight out of the rig and reducing the mast rake could produce some improvements. A carbon masts is not an option. Do you reef your main or head sail first? |
Join Date: 01 March 2007
Posts: 147 |
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Hi John,
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Join Date: 12 November 2011
Posts: 14 |
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We have changed the sailplan of our swan 47 ( ZEEDUIVEL) last winter. The Dutch Yacht designer Frans Maas has drawn the plan New taller carbon mast New longer carbon V Boom I---20.30 meter above 0 datum J---6.03 meter 120% LP 7.20 M OPP. LUFF---20.30 M 73.00 m2 Main: P---19.30 M E---5.50 M OPP 58 m2 Result is fantastic; Less weatherhelm Pointing higher Less pitching We only start reefing with 28 knots App; with the old rig reefing the big Gen between 20-25 knots Alexander
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Join Date: 19 July 2007
Posts: 66 |
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John. Just returned from a 3 week cruise on Hierro and was interested in the comments from you and the other 411 owners. We have previously reefed in approx 18-19 knots apparent, mainly to reduce the heel rather than weather helm, which has not been a problem. However we have replaced the mainsail this season, and during this trip found that at 21-22 knots the boat was happy with full main, with the boom on the centreline, and would have probably taken more before reefing. we put this down to the much flatter, (less worn), cut of the sail. both the old and new are fully battened, however the new sail gives another half a knot at least to windward with higher pointing ability.The genoa we cruise with is a roller reefing, 135%, which we only reef over 25 knots apparent. I think the cut of the sails have often much more effect than the size. Regards Paul Bond. Hierro 411 042 |
Join Date: 02 February 2007
Posts: 126 |
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We have just had our new genoa delivered to Tigris this week. We didn't have the weather helm issue, but I was aware that there was more heeling force than there should be, going up wind. Hopefully, will the right shaped sail and low stretch Gatorback 295 cloth, it will hold its shape as the pressure increases. We have also gone for a lower centre of effort than before when it was a yankee shape. My first sail with it will be next Sunday when we start our summer holiday in Croatia from Split.
Sail hoisted in flat calm in the marina |
Join Date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 252 |
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Paul - Curious as to what main you bought - who made it, what is it made of? My boat came with a North trilam full batten main, which was too heavy for my general use. I bought a UK Halsey partial batten main, tape drive silver powerhead 2, which was inexpensive but has been a very nice sail - now 3 years old, but used lightly, it still has the same shape as when new. I'm getting ready to maybe buy something a little tougher, but not as heavy again as the North trilam, so am seeking input in that regard - anything you can share would be appreciated. Thanks, Geoff, Corazon, 411 #41 |
Join Date: 19 July 2007
Posts: 66 |
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Geoff. I find sail choice very difficult, with all the different materials and sailmakers.We have used Sanders sails in Lymington for all our sails for Hierro, as some of the ones that came with the boat were excellent and importantly one can speak to Peter Sanders for advice and visit the loft to inspect the sails being made.(in UK not China) The new sail is in Bainbridge CL Diax CFG which has carbon ribbon reinforcement and should give good durability, (not cheap!) It is tri¬radial cut with 5 full battens, I think certainly for cruising I would not go back to partial battens as the cloth seems to be better supported and it does definately extend the sails useful life. The secret with fully battened sails is the batten end cars. With the previous Dacron mainsail I could fully raise the main without the use of the winch as we had Fredriksen `Ballslide` batten cars.I reused these on the new main which makes hoisting it easy. Regards Paul |
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234 |
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Hi Paul. I am amazed that you can fly a 135% with 25 knots apparent wind.
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Join Date: 19 July 2007
Posts: 66 |
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Hi John. 25 knots is the top end for the full genoa. I try not to reef the sail to windward as the shape and pointing ability are ruined when more than a couple of turns are on the furler.The sea conditions make a considerable differance we can only get away with it in flat seas, we are probably "pinching"a little and letting the main down the track at this windspeed however we dont let the rail go into the water as this obviously slows the boat. I am not certain of the actual mast rake however when Avista and Hierro were alongside each other in Lymington the rigs looked very simlar in rake. we however have a replacement spar with 3 spreaders, which is much more flexible than the Nautor original and the mast bend is more pronounced. When Im next on board I will drop a halyard down and give you an approximate figure. Regards. Paul |
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