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S&S Swan General - Gas locker location
18 May 2019 - 06:17
#1
Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 130

Gas locker location

Dear all,

we are considering to change our gas system from butane to propane. At the moment, we have three bottles of camping gas (each 2.7kg) on our Swan 48, located in the port side locker in the cockpit. That system works very well, in particular in central and southern Europe where campingaz is available, but (surprise) butane is not easily available everywhere, due to issues with cold temperature.

However, available 5 kg propane bottles will not fit into the cockpit locker. So if we change the type of gas, I will have to think of a new place for the gas bottles, and I am reluctant to sacrifice the little space we have in the aft locker. Perhaps I will put them under the helsman bench, unless anyone has better input where gas bottles on a 48 can be sensibly installed?

Thanks for ideas,
Martin (Vellamo, 48/039)

Gas bottles in portside cockpit locker

20 May 2019 - 19:31
#2
Join Date: 27 January 2011
Posts: 124

Hi Martin,

One thought: you could ask http://www.legends-reborn.com/portfolio/swan-48/ how they solved this when they revamped the Swan 48. The contact is  info@legends-reborn.com .

On this page you see where Isbjorn has their Propane bottles: https://www.59-north.com/isbjorn , maybe also worth a conversation.

Kind regards,

Christian 411/028 IF

 

 

24 May 2019 - 04:46
#3
Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 130

Dear Christian,

thanks for your input! Contacting other 48 owners dircectly may indeed help ... even if Lucky Bird (the "revamped" Swan) is so far away from the normal layout of a 48 that I don't think it will help.

For the moment, we've decided to carry some extra butane bottles.

Fair winds,
Martin

24 May 2019 - 07:41
#4
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1449

Dear Martin

If the present gas bottle locker needs to be just a little bigger to accept propane bottles, and the height above the aft cabin berth allows a modification, the bottom of the locker could perhaps be lowered somewhat?
Kind regards
Lars

20 October 2020 - 15:29
#5
Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 130

Hi everybody,

as we are still working on a solution to the gas locker problem, I considered to make use of the two vents that end in the stern of the 48. In the picture you can see the two black tubes ending right next to the fastening of the backstay, slightly off the centerline of the boat.
I wonder what these two originally vented? On our boat, they simply end under the starboard settee in the saloon. I've always assumed that they were some kind of vent for the batteries that used to be in that place, but as they are routed from the stern up to the deck then down again, that would seem to be ineffective to vent gas that is either heavier or lighter than air. And one of the two would certainly apply.
The water tanks vent to the pantry sink area. The fuel tank vents to a different spot inside the stern locker ... there's not much left, I think.

Any ideas?

Best regards,
Martin (Vellamo, 48/039)

View into stern locker

22 October 2020 - 05:25
#6
Join Date: 27 January 2011
Posts: 124

Hi Martin,

our 411 has a vent for the gooseneck that is part of the engine exhaust cooling, which is not in use anymore after a new engine was put in. There is then also a vent for the greywater swamp in the head.

Owning the boat for almost ten years we also still discover new riddles.

Kind regards,

Christian 411/028 IF

22 October 2020 - 13:47
#7
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1449

Dear Martin 

If the fuel tank really vents inside the boat, you should consider re-routing it through
the topside.
Now it blows diesel fumes into the boat when you fill the tank, and if you overfill, the excess will end up inside, and stink. If this happened, flushing with vinegar will remove the smell.
 
 
Dear Chris
Apparently the installer of the new engine did not understand the original reliable exhaust siphon vent arrangement, and replaced it maybe with some valve containing moving parts.
Pls note that in salt water such a valve needs regular servicing. If it gets blocked there is no warning, but suddenly the engine may not start because there is water in the cyliinders.
 
If the shower pan bottom and wash basin are drained into the sump tank, a sump tank vent is not needed. Maybe a siphon break has been added to avoid the Owner's Manual requirement that "pumping must go on until the pump sucks air"?
 
Kind regards to each of you
Lars

22 October 2020 - 15:46
#8
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 827

Dear Christian,

the team who worked on the "revamped" Swan 48 missed  a lot of reliable original things, alas...

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

22 October 2020 - 18:54
#9
Join Date: 27 January 2011
Posts: 124

Thank you Lars,

adding the valve check to my regular check list.

Regarding the sump tank vent - that one was there from the start. It was quite convenient because I could use it for the blackwater tank vent also (after the odor filter). I assume it was needed because water from the sink and the shower enters the tank through some form of water lock, to keep any odors inside the tank and to only let water in. When emptying the sump tank there would be quite some sucking noise from the sink, if there were no additional vent.  

Regards,

Christian

22 October 2020 - 19:20
#10
Join Date: 27 January 2011
Posts: 124

Hi Matteo,

true! I actually contacted them to ask if they still had parts. They did sell the deck equipment, so maybe some other Swan owner is profiting from that. The teak interior was in a bad condition and not reusable.

Hi Martin,

one more thing regarding battery vents. We have one exiting in a similar position as your tubes, but ours has a 38mm diameter. 

Regards,

Christian

 

22 October 2020 - 19:25
#11
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1449

Dear Christian

Thank you for the information.
Yes, there are interceptor bends (Röhrensiphon) in the shower pan and sink, same principle as you have at home for preventing smells.
I do not have the plumbing scheme for the 411, but I found it for another S&S model, and indeed there is a vent line from the sump tank, a nice feature.
The lower end where connected to the tank may need cleaning sometimes, the contents can cause sediments to collect.
Kind regards
Lars
 

22 October 2020 - 19:32
#12
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 827

Dear Christian and Lars,

please see below. I will upload a better definition one on classicswan later tonight

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

23 October 2020 - 07:21
#13
Join Date: 20 July 2017
Posts: 29

Dear Lars,

thanks for your comment regarding the engine exhaust vent, we had exactly the same 'issue' as Chris - got a new engine by an external engine 'specialist' last year found the original vent replaced by a "new valve vent" arrangement ...always amazed me how often people think it's ok to take things out without thinking for a second and/or double-checking with the owner.

As you can imagine i wasn't a happy bunny at all as the old system was so simple and worked flawlessly.

With your wise words as further 'ammunition'  I will try to get our usual ("preferred" - they always check with us) boatyard to maybe reinstate the old system. Already raised it with them last year but since they never seen the clever S&S/Nautor approach they found nothing wrong with the new vent ... can't blame them as they probably never seen anything else.

 

Matteo - looking forward to the drawing, thank you!

 

Best

Stefan

Kairos 57/043

23 October 2020 - 11:13
#14
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 827

Dear Stefan,

plumbing uploaded for the S&S Swan 57 too: https://www.classicswan.org/swan_drawings.php?Tipo=14

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

24 October 2020 - 08:51
#15
Join Date: 20 July 2017
Posts: 29

Dear Matteo,

thank you very much, good to see that on Kairos most of the plumbing seems to be original.

Also interesting to learn what optional extras there were (and which ones we have :-) )

Fair winds & cheers

Stefan

Kairos 57/043

08 November 2020 - 14:36
#16
Join Date: 07 October 2014
Posts: 63

Hi martin,

Here another possibility

I am right now on the job to build a customized gas locker.

Because the bottle is just 3 cm smaler than the opening under helsman seat.

Will fiberglassing arround this dummi and on the bottom it gets a tube connection to route the venting hose to one of the seacocks above the waterline.

7,5 kg prophane.

I have two more spare bottles without a locker - i just used a hose connection (us valve system) and closed the hole with a metric screw. Did a test, it is sealed. So you can store extra bottles everywere.

For every body: do you agree that this is save or did i missed a view of possibility leakage?

Stefan, "world traveler"  411#02

08 November 2020 - 19:03
#17
Join Date: 20 July 2017
Posts: 29

Hi Stefan,

I'd probably sleep less well with your solution, to be honest.

Obviously, one could argue that if the bottle/your seal is tight it doesn't matter where you store it and I guess that is true if it stays tight. However, how do you guarantee that it does that - staying tight? If there would be way to do guarantee tightness of fittings and connection I suppose there would not be a need for a vented gas locker anymore...

In my opinion, the vented gas locker is not vented because one expects a leakage is unavoidable - gas connections are supposed to be tight always, and with some attention to detail this can be done I believe. In my humble opinion, the vented locker is a safety feature if something goes wrong ... obviously as gas bottles are being swaped for new ones in the locker there is a higher chance of a connection not done properly but still ... the bottles see vibration, movement through heavy weather etc.

We are lucky enough to be able to store three bottles in our locker - one in use and two spares - but if I would need to carry more bottles I'd probably store them on deck even if they'd be sealed by the manufacturer.

Just my thoughts - would be good to see other opinions here.

Cheers

Stefan

Kairos - 57/043

08 November 2020 - 19:25
#18
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1449

Dear Stefan

You say you will sail World Traveler back to Germany. Then it would be advisable to read the German Gas Regulations carefully and take care that your installation  meets them.
Kind regards

 

Lars

10 November 2020 - 11:17
#19
Join Date: 07 October 2014
Posts: 63

Hello lars, hello stefan,

Looks like there are no more opinions coming in.

Thank you so much for letting me know your thoughts / feedback.

I will take the best essence out of them, need to rethink.

Fair winds, stefan 411#02

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