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Keel Bolts and General Topics on Keel - Swan 36 keel and bilge
29 September 2020 - 09:01
#1
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Swan 36 keel and bilge

Good morning,

my name is Timo and I'd like to quickly introduce myself. I have sailed some time on the S48 "Themis", which some of you might know.

After some consideration I decided to look for a S&S Swan of my own and join this family ;-)

I am eventually about to buy a S&S Swan 36, currently deep in price negotiations and inspection. I am happy Matteo exceptionally invited me to this forum to be able to access all your knowledge before buying the boat.

The boat has been in dry storage for a few years and has seen very little water the last decade. There is water/liquid standing deep in the bilge. Overall quite a refit coming up :-)

Heres the my question:

Please find attached pictures of the keel. The "seam" is partially open and the surfface shows tracks of "liquid" running down. 

I am wondering what the reason could be and if this could be a problem leading to the keel bolts. Could this be corrosion or can I just seal it with sika or the alike?

Any recommendation what to look for in this matter on the next visit?

Thanks for yout support in advance, cheers Timo

29 September 2020 - 09:05
#2
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Here some more pictures. Timo

29 September 2020 - 09:10
#3
Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 822

Dear Timo,

you are very welcome in this Forum and I do hope you will be soon part of our S&S Swan Family!

Looking at the good images you have posted it looks like the keel has been already dismantled during the boat's life, and maybe not properly re-installed, but I know Lars will get a more and detailed answer.

So, looking forward to reading our Professor.

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

29 September 2020 - 09:20
#4
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Some more bilge pics. Timo

30 September 2020 - 06:00
#5
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1438

Dear Timo

Water coming out from the cracked keel to hull joint indicates that there may be problems inside. Now the weight of the boat is resting on the keel and this closes the joint, but the situation in the water is different, and the bolts need to be so tight that the joint does not open even at large heeling angles.
The Swan 36 keel bolts are not cast into the lead, instead there are drilled holes for them, and they have nuts also at their lower end. If not properly sealed this makes them more prone to corrosion, and it is advisable to inspect them all along their entire length. This requires that the keel is dropped. 
There are 11 keel bolts, and some of them are below the engine. The bolts in the bilge are fairly easy to find, but the pockets for the nuts at the lower end are hidden behind keel filler.
Kind regards
Lars

30 September 2020 - 07:46
#6
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Dear Lars,

thanks for your quick reply and description. We will consider this in our price negotiations. 

Terveisiä saksasta, me katsotaan venettä uudestaan ensi maanantaina, täytyy löytää veneen numeroa jostain. Matteo kertoi että sinä ehdotit että se voisi olla numero 17.

Kiitos and thanks, Timo

30 September 2020 - 09:13
#7
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1438

Dear Timo

Pls check if you can find earlier boat names.
Does she have a sail number?
Kind regards
Lars

30 September 2020 - 09:59
#8
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Dear Lars,

current name: Anina

sail number: OR G 1657

Thanks, Timo

30 September 2020 - 10:01
#9
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

And just to be clear: the keel should not have this seam/gap visible at all?

It would be glassed over and invisible?

Thanks Timo

30 September 2020 - 16:46
#10
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1438

Thank you for the sail number

The keel seam should not be visible, i.e. the bolts must be sufficiently tight.
If the bolts are loose, thin layers of GRP will not stop the cracking. Pls note that some builders make the laminate over the whole keel sufficiently thick, so it can carry all the loads and the bolts become obsolete. 
If you choose to do this, it is still necessary to check the bolts, as they may suffer from crevice corrosion in their holes.
Kind regards
Lars
 

05 October 2020 - 18:06
#11
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Dear Lars,

we had another look at the boat today, unfortunately did not find any hull number.

We did find another old sail number that leads to sweden:

OR S53

Sail manufactured by Örtengren Segelmakeri Stockholm. Propably from an early owner, maybe the original one?

There is a plaque on the mast, please see pictures below. Is there any archive that connects the mast serial number to the hull? Seems to be the original one.

Ian Proctor Metal Masts, Southhampton,  Serial 810 165

Thanks and regards, Timo

 

06 October 2020 - 10:10
#12
Join Date: 20 July 2017
Posts: 24

Dear Timo,

I believe the hull number originally should have been displayed in a plaque like the one in the picture below; earlier boats had a thinner metal plaque rather than cast brass I think. 

There is more information on these plaques elsewhere in the forum, the one below is ours (Kairos) and is placed at the chart table. Not sure of this is the usual place they are mounted, and I heard sometimes previous owners took them off as a memorabilia when they sold the boat ...

Maybe have a look if you can find evidence that something of a matching shape has been removed - I don't know any other place on Kairos where the hull number would be stated but Lars might be able to help.

As for your British mast manufacturer plaque, it might be a bit of a long shot but if the boat was at any one time was registered in Britain ('UK Ships Register') it might still have it's registration number stated somewhere.

If I recall correctly this number has to be installed in such a way that it can't be removed (easily) so there might be a chance that it is still somewhere. You could then try and contact the Register for more information on the boat, they should also have the hull number.

Our Register placque is a massive (about 40 cm x 10 cm) brass plate set in one of the teak bulkheads in the forward port cabin - see below. It's set into the bulkhead so no way this will ever be removed - too much work/damage. Also we think it's part of the history of Kairos.

Not sure if this helps but good luck!

 

Stefan

Kairos (57/043)

Ships Register Plaque

Nauto plaque at chart table

06 October 2020 - 10:42
#13
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Dear Stefan,

thanks for your reply,

I might need to clarify, some info only passed via e-mail.

The ship was auctioned around 2000 in Hamburg and was bought by the current owners without the brass or metal plaque and without any papers.

We are trying to find out the hull number prior to buying it, feels a little awkward not to have anything about the boat. We are quite sure though that she is a original Swan ;-)

We were looking for marks from the workers on the inside of the furniture or on the hull in the lazarette. Did not find any.

Only clue so far are two registered national sail numbers from previours owners, we are trying to get info from their associations archives in Germany and Sweden.

Goal: we would like to exclude she is one of the hulls that was declared as damaged and registered as destroyed with Nautor and we would like to get a new Nautor plaque for proud installation at the nav table ;-)

As for the British registration: there is no sign of it anywhere and also no papers that hint that way.

Cheers Timo

06 October 2020 - 11:33
#14
Join Date: 20 July 2017
Posts: 24

Thanks Timo,

that makes sense.

Good luck with your quest - only other thing I can think of may be the serial number of the engine, believe we needed this for the registration. And for the insurance - maybe another port of call there although they might not be at liberty to share information with you.

Hope it all goes well, and thanks for sharing your journey here!

Best

Stefan

Kairos - 53/043

10 October 2020 - 12:00
#15
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1438

Timo

I have the impression that this boat has participated in several Gotland Runt-races, and also in the One Ton Cup 1969, but unable to find old results.
Maybe you have better luck
Kind regards
Lars

12 October 2020 - 14:50
#16
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Dear Lars,

thank you very much for these hints, I have contacted KSSS about archived results of the Gotland Runt races, they only have post 1993 results online on their website. One Ton Cup seems to be a little more difficult.

How did you conclude the boat might have benn active in these races?

But just to make sure we are not missing a shortcut here:

As far as I understood Nautor has records of the hull number and the built in engine with the serial. Our boat has a new engine but still has the original mast. Did they keep the srial of the mast also in their records and could connect it to the hull?

Regards Timo

13 October 2020 - 12:22
#17
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1438

Timo

Earlier KSSS had older Gotland Runt results on their website, and it is a pity they have been removed.
It appears they do not answer enquiries about old sail numbers.
This Swan 36 was originally sold to Sweden, and competed in several Gotland Runt under the name Winnie Two.
There was a notation in a German yachting magazine about the One Ton Cup 1969, and this boat was mentioned.
I do not think the Proctor mast number is on record in the yard files, but have asked.
Kind regards
Lars

14 October 2020 - 19:20
#18
Join Date: 28 September 2020
Posts: 17

Thank you very much Lars!

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