Do you want to be informed on new Posts on this Thread? (members only)
Sail & Rigging - New sails for a 41 |
---|
Join Date: 30 January 2007
Posts: 15 |
||
---|---|---|
New sails for a 41 |
Join Date: 02 February 2007
Posts: 126 |
||
---|---|---|
Rob, we have tried many routes with our 3 Swans over the years. I would probably avoid laminates for cruising although they will hold a better shape but instead go for good quality white sails. On Matteo's recommendation we went to Guido Cavalazzi who designs for North and had made some good quality "white" sails this year which I am pleased with and would expect them to have a 10 year life. In the UK we have had similar ones by Parker and Kay and Shore sails. We also have laminate sails including North 3DL's and UK carbon tape drives for Black Tie but they aren't very durable. Gavin |
Join Date: 03 March 2007
Posts: 242 |
||
---|---|---|
Hi Rob<> I went through an interal debate about sails this year as we are getting ready for some distance sailing. This ended up in me doing a lot of research on the issue. First bit of info, almost all lofts are having their sails bullt i n China or Malasia including North. They take the measurements and send them to the loft were they are built to the specs of North Etc. <> <> Dacron: The workhorse. I chose to get a heavy dacron main with two full battens. Why. Dacron stretches as we all know but is repairable. As you generally only carry one main I wanted one that would last (okstretch) and not break down the way a laminate can once it gets out of its wind range... and a main does get used in almost all winds. Anyway, I got the best quaility dacron on the market..heaviest cloth tightest weave as well as heavy duty stitching. For the full battens the loft had cars which fit our main track perfectly at a very low cost... no modification needed. I am very happy with way they work no jamming.... <> Head sail laminate: love the way they hold their shape until they don't. They don't last that long. I have two laminates now a 125 (1 season)and a 145 (8 seasons..which when I took the 145 in for some repair I shocked the sailmaker... they never last this long you must really look after it). Anyway, the repair was needed as it had cracked while in winter storage. I am hoping it will be usable next season but not counting on it. Why laminates as head sails... one usally has a couple of head sails so if one goes you can put another up. . <> Sailmaker. Choose one who you can talk to and explain the differences, strengths and weaknesses of the different materials cuts etc. After all the discussions with different lofts I ended up with a little loft in California. We had lots of discussions and clearly presented the issues. They did not rely on a brand name but get business because of word of mouth recommendations from customers. They do not advertise and hence the costs are a bit lower. They contribute 10% of the cost of the sail to environmental causes. They get the sails made in one of the largest lofts in the world (same one used by e.g. Quantium and others). I have developed such a good rappour with the sailmaker that he will be joining us for Antigua Sailing week next year. http://www.islandplanetsails.com/ You can see the sails in one of the pictures of Stormsvale (S&S Swan 40). Note our logo on the main!! Thanks Matteo. and no I don't work for them |
Join Date: 03 March 2007
Posts: 242 |
||
---|---|---|
forgot to mention. The sails are great!!!!
|
Join Date: 30 January 2007
Posts: 15 |
||
---|---|---|
Thanks Gavin and Mike. I will avoid laminates.
|
Join Date: 06 August 2010
Posts: 24 |
||
---|---|---|
Rob, I disagree with suggestions in the replied posts that dacron sails are better with regard to longevity.
|
Join Date: 03 March 2007
Posts: 242 |
||
---|---|---|
Hi Rob et al.
|
Join Date: 16 October 2011
Posts: 5 |
||
---|---|---|
Dear all, I am very happy to start my contrubution to this Forum as a sail designer (thanks Matteo for the invitation...), discussing such a fundamental question: woven Dacron vs. Laminated cloth. It's a very wide and open field, where is quite difficult to tell what is white from what is definitely black. In general, in either case the really important issue is to have an appropriate strength material, combined to a correct shape distribution. Material choice is often driven by different kind of preference criteria (look, "hand" softness, as well as price/durability). Beside all these, I would add the following consideration. Our S&S sailplans, like most in the I.O.R. days are recognizable: Mainsail is often very high aspect (P/E > 3.5), Fore Triangle is not: Headsails are much wider than taller (Luff/LP < 2.5, sometime 2.0). This I think is also due to one rule particularity: the spinnaker width and pole length are both directly associated to Fore Triangle base length "J". Shortening the Boom, Mainsail area is reduced, Headsail remain relatively big, as well as Downwind sail's area. For a given upwind rated sail area, a much larger kite for free seems to be a good deal... but let's go back to our Mainsail proportion, and associated material choice. Sailing upwind fully loaded, such an High Aspect Mainsail Leech is experiencing an extarordinary high load, for the actual Mainsail area. For this reason, a woven Dacron Mainsail is normally made Cross-cut, using a cloth featuring very strong Fill yarns. Warp yarns are reletively lighter and loose, just to leave Fill yarns dead straight in the weaving process, to minimize material stretch. All single panels Fill yarns are joined together, remaining aligned along the Leech to transfer the load up from the Clew without distorting the sail. I don't think an High Aspect Dacron Main can be made with other panel layout than Cross Cut. Radial layouts require a strong Warp material. Any woven material can't have a warp yarn as strong as the Fill yarn can easily be made, for one basic reason. In the weaving process, warps are moving alternately to allow the Fill spool to pass through across the loom. Warp yarns can not have alot of tension simply because the loom would consequently brake, or run extremely slow. For this reason, to make a good performance Warp cloth, as requred to build an effective High Aspect Mainsail, it's much easier to rely on fiber inherent modulus than yarn tension. Fiber modulus is one of Laminated cloth's most important ingredients, without any weaving process constraints. Laminated sails can be made in two different ways, generally speaking. Either cut in panels stepping into different weight materials, or having a whole integral structure laminated inside external films, or polyester taffeta layers to protect from chafe, at some extra weight cost. Low Aspect sails, that are mainly Genoas in our S&S wonderful world, experience very different load distribution compared to Main and Blade Jibs. Sheet load is aiming much more inside the sail, not anymore along the very Leech. Being Foot much longer, Leech is remaining relatively shorter. Consequently sheet load is shared with a different balance. Although Genoas are larger in area, less strength is required along their Leech. For this reason, Genoas can be made either Cross-Cut using more balanced materials (i.e. less "Fill oriented"), or Triradial using Warp oriented materials. In my recent experience with identical sail plan Low-aspect Headsails, the same design has proven valid using either laminated polyester, or relatively "strong Warp" woven Dacron. At this point, in my opinion the choice could also involve the particular taste for a more "Classical" sail or a more "Technical", keeping the option of doing it all white (taffeta protected, durable and softer) just like a Dacron sail, or finished with external shining Mylar films. This is leaving visible the material internal structure, and looks in my opinion much less appealing hoisted on our true beauties. |
Join Date: 10 December 2010
Posts: 23 |
||
---|---|---|
Hi Rob, This is a re-post that we did in 14 January, 2011 titled Dacron vs Laminates: Here on Proximity, we are using a set of UK Halsey Passage Maker II laminates. They are mylar, spectra, carbon tape cruising sails. We had them about four years on San Francisco Bay, then in September, 2009, we went cruising with them. We did Mexico then across the Pacific, and we are now in New Zealand. We had the sails inspected by the local Doyle loft. They are still in fine shape with many seasons ahead of them. Will they last as long as dacron? I doubt it, but they have already lasted as long as dacron would have kept their shape. They are also much lighter than our old dacrons, so there is less weight aloft. So, there you have the two schools of thought. The dacrons will last maybe 20 years, but loose their shape, and are heavy. A good laminate will have near perfect shape until its life is over, and I guess that is the unknown, but I'm sure it will not be 20 years. Bottom line is that we too, are happy, and would make the same decision again. Either way, you'll be happy. New sails are wonderful!! By the way, if you would like to see more of these sails, we have a website of our travels with many photos. It is www.sailproximity.com Best Always, Rod and Elisabeth
|
Join Date: 25 July 2008
Posts: 30 |
||
---|---|---|
Dear All,
|
- Threads : 1729
- Posts : 10335
- Members: 829
- Online Members: 1