411 head and basin foot pump inlet seacock
Hi all
My inlet seacock has developed a hole in the body below the packing right where the fitting turns out for the hose attachment. It seems like it might have started with a casting flaw, which over the years turned into a drip which now is a substantial spray leak, but only when the valve is on. I am going to abrade the hole, clean and dry it, put some liquid metal epoxy paste at the bottom and fill it on the top with a hard setting epoxy, which I think will be a suitable repair to get me through the season, although when I leave the boat I will still turn it off just in case. My question to the group for those that have replaced this particular on on the 411 is - did anyone find the original replacement to re-install, and if so, how did you minimize the cutting out damage on the glass? Secondly if you used different parts to make up the new through hull, what was your approach as there is not too much vertical space available there under the floorboard to play around with. Finally, how thick is the hull at this point? I have the capability at work with 3D solids and our own bronze foundry to make a couple just like original, but to get it in, would have to make a fair sized hole, which concerns me at least a little. If I do this, should I grind down into the laminate on the inside and build the glass back up well with cloth inside and out after the new fitting goes in, or is it acceptable to just fill the space with mat/fiber pieces and epoxy, given the location and expected near zero loading on the fitting? Any input would be welcome and thank you as always.

Geoff, Corazon, 411 #41

Or maybe the hole was for a plug? I will check some of the others. A new Perko I saw had a plug...

No plug….just a hole. The boat is coming out of the water today…out of curiosity, can we still get the original seacocks, are they possibly in stock or still being made?

Hi Geoff,

I assume you also have the Blakes sea cocks - you can still get them, we had one replaced.

Christian IF 411/028

Thanks Christian!

So I have the Blake 3/4" coming Wednesday. It appears to me to be glasses in over a narrow channel that for some reason goes from starboard of center to just a little to port. If I do it myself I was going to cut it out carefully with a Dremel. Can anyone tell me what is connected under, metal or is it just glass? And what's the best way to get the old one out without destroying the conduit or surrounding structure? Professor??

Geoff
The new Blake should come with a fixed round flange, this flange goes against the hull from the inside.
The original one has a similar flange, for removal cut away the fiberglass on the inside on top of the old flange, and pull out the old seacock. There is sealant under the flange, would appreciate to hear if still flexible.
Bed the new seacock down in new sealant, and lay up glass over the flange, +-45 deg. double bias recommended for good drapeability.
With the flange in place the throat of the new seacock protrudes on the outside, and needs to be finished flush.
Kind regards
Lars

Dear Lars -

Thank you very much for the help - but I remain a little confused, as it seems in the case of my boat that there's no hole thru the hull under that seacock. Rather, there is a very small hole, about 5 mm in diameter, just to the port of center that I think must communicate water to this head inlet, since there is no other hole visible underneath the seacock itself. Is it possible for some reason that this unusual routing was done at the factory? I can't understand it in any case - or maybe I am missing something.

Sincere thanks in any case,

Geoff

I think you have answered the question I had indirectly which is how thick is the hull here, if that stub should reach the outside surface, but I expected more thickness just because the seacock is so very close to the centerline of the boat (150 mm at most). The black spot you see on the pic from the exterior is the speed instrument. As you might be able to tell, there's no other hole there. The small hole is just forward of the strap on the lift, just to the port of center, maybe 75 mm. The hole in the Blake was in the rear of the shot, forward as the boat goes, where it seems the newer seacocks might have a grease fitting, just where the Y breaks off for the tubing connection.

Geoff
When you remove the old seacock you will probably see how the 5 mm hole is connected. Would suggest the arrangement you describe is the result of an improper repair. If there is filler instead of GRP laminate in the flange area the laminate needs to be restored.
Seacocks to be installed with the stub going through the hull, and the stub hole fully open.
Kind regards
Lars

Geoff,
I am puzzled by your picture. In that small space there are too many hoses and too many unidentified objects!
In my 411 there is just one Blakes 3/4 seacock and one small hose that goes to the clean water inlet of the WC. On the outside there is a small aperture directly under the seacock; this is the original setup.
Daniel, 411/004

Daniel -

It only seems that way because there's a mirror in the shot I was using to see the hole, and there was more hose there than was needed, so there was a loop where there didn't really need to be one.

Someone did branch into this line just beyond the seacock where the line goes under to get to the head, in order to feed a salt water wash down pump, which is still there and working, just with outlet now plugged.  I may rig a hose for intermittent use, why not?  But haven't as yet.

As for the rest of my observations, I was just in error. The seacock is to the port side of center, and the small hole on that side was indeed the bottm of the Blake.   Aside from my feeling foolish, that's all good, as it means there's no butcher repair job there letting water into the glass. 

Based on the condition of this one, I am going to replace all of them this fall.  Check out the size of the hole in the old one!

Thanks to everyone for all the help and Lars - I have asked about whether the sealant was still flexible, and hopefully will hear back shortly on that.

All the best, soon to float -

Geoff, Corazon, 411 #41

Old and new Blake head inlet seacocks

Geoff,

Let me know how this goes, I just pulled the seacocks on my 411. Three of them came out begrudgingly. Obviously, they had not been greased in years. The one in the head is completely stuck. I've tried dry ice and penetrating fluid. It looks like I'll have to cut it out and put a new one back in.

All the best,

Don 411/11

Assuming that the boat is out of the water, the best way to exctract the cone from a stuck Blake seacock is by pushing it from outside with a properly sized rod. The rod, either hard wood or not-too-hard metal, should enter the inner part of the cone and act on the inner almost-flat part. My experience is that a more or less gentle blow with a mallet from outside will free any badly stuck Blake.
Daniel, 411/004

Hi Daniel,

I tried a metal 'drift pin' (after the aforementioned dry ice and penetrating fluid) that fits into the center of inner fitting of the seacock. It worked well on the other three seacocks. Only one of them took a moderate tap to break free. I've taken some fairly strong blows to this one, and it hasn't budged at all. I also tried a heavy duty screw driver that spanned a little broader area. Nothing!

I really don't want to cut the old one out if I don't have to--I'm just at a loss to know what to try next. I might be able to wedge a wooden dowel into the neck of the seacock, but I can't see how that will give me any better results. This seacock doesn't appear to have a tapered shaft (my two small ones are tapered--the other large one has a straight shaft).

Don 411/11

Hi Don,
indeed if the seacock is not tapered the push-from-outside trick may not work. They are not the original Blakes, I suppose, and it would be helpful if you could post a picture.
Instead of dry ice I would try heating the body of the seacock - the part that is inside the boat - fast enough to keep cool the inner rotating part and at the same time pushing hard with the rod as discussed before.
Daniel, 411/004

Don:

I've seen all the additional posts and I'm sure you loosened the packing gland - ? But why wouldn't you just cut out the whole seacock at this stage? They're old, right? Around $220.00 each, they're pretty inexpensive. I feel better with fresh metal after 35 years, especially given what happened to mine....just a thought.

Best of luck and fair winds -

Geoff, Corazon, 411 #41

Daniel,

I'll take a picture when I'm back on the boat tomorrow. All of the seacocks look original. The hull hasn't been molested in any way. But the two large seacocks don't appear to be tapered??

I have a butane torch and a hot air gun for removing varnish. I'm reluctant to use the torch, but maybe it's ok if I'm quick.

Don

You're right Geoff. Perhaps I'm lazy. Its a bear to work under the sink in the head. Plus the bronze looks great. The barrels on the other four seacocks are in good shape. They're not scored, so restoration should be a snap.

Don 411/11

Don:

It's interesting to see the subtle differences in the boats.  My boat has the head inlet seacock under the floorboard outside the head, in the walkway to the forepeak (which is what put my thru hull hole on the port side).  I assume yours is actually on starboard?  Anyway, I can appreciate the big difference in working on mine in that nice open space, compared to messing around in tight quarters.  The one thing about my spot was that only the Blake could have fit - any combination of more current offerings of thru hull fittings, valves, elbows etc. would have required more height than is available under that flooorboard (5" or so only, max.), so it was good the Blake was still out there, otherwise we'd have had to move it, plug the old hole, etc.

I assume your boat like all our S&S Swans, has all these seacocks and other items electrically bonded?  It's important to maintain the bonding, as any weak connection or degraded bonding straps can result in introduction of voltage potentials on the hardware, which in turn can result in unanticipated and often agressive galvanic corrosion of some items, bronze seacocks among them.

What is your hull number (forgive me if it should be obvious, I can alway look again - - just curious).

I ended up replacing (3), will do (2) more in the fall.  The ones we did came out great, not that big a deal, and now we know they're new.  Since Blake was selling only 3/4" and 1 1/2" now, we ended up wtih a larger than original engine inlet seacock, but that's fine. 

Best of luck,

Geoff

I think that Don is struggling with the large WC outlet seacock placed in all our 411 under the sink cabinet.
In fact I am interested in his work because the same seacock in my boat is badly pitted and needs replacing soon. Knowing the recessed location I thought that it would be best to temporarily dismantle the whole sink cabinet; I would appreciate very much comments and suggestions.
Geoff: regarding the bonding issue, you will find tons of written arguments, none conclusive I am afraid because the cons and pros are almost equally weighed. On this side of the Pond they have somehow decided that if the thru-hulls are not connected to any electrical conducting element, they are better left as they are. I think that Nautor complied to this "religious dogma" in all the boats originally delivered within Europe.
Daniel, 411/004

Daniel -

I am with you on the general topic of bonding/no bonding being an open issue, and one subject to discussion on both sides - my comments were directed to those of us with bonding all over, where some bonding might be compromised - in these cases, the compromised item can move in voltage from the rest of the chain and become a super anode to the other bonded items.....so I was told in any event, and it made engineering sense to me.

For whatever it's worth - of course, I would love to hear what the professor thinks on that topic...

All the best, and fair winds -

Geoff